Advice for a Slacker

topic posted Tue, January 3, 2006 - 7:28 PM by  Hoopes
I could use some sage advise about what--if anything--to say to a 20-year-old male relative whose regular marijuana habit seems to be slowly ruining his life. He's capable of being a bright, articulate, and generally nice person. However, he's also an unemployed high school dropout who lights up his first pipe every day before noon.

He is living by himself in a crappy, dangerous urban neighborhood in a small house that was inherited from a now-deceased junkie uncle (who inherited it from his mother), so he doesn't have to worry about rent. He pays for groceries and utilities with a small amount of money he gets from his low-income parents. He is also (theoretically) supplementing his income through low-level dealing. His house has become a hangout lounge for friends who come by to watch TV or play video games and there are various levels of other kinds of substance abuse going on. The activities are undoubtedly known to the authorities, but no neighbors are complaining and it seems unlikely that much will happen unless these guys do something more stupid than what they're already up to.

He readily admits to me that his lack of motivation to change his situation is due in part to his regular marijuana use, which he has no motivation to change. He seems to have a very high tolerance for poverty and decay and very little hope for any kind of future. I don't think he's hurting anyone other than himself, but it seems clear that he's self-medicating for some deeper issues. Coke, crack and crank seem to be likely inevitabilities, but his main addiction for now is just pot.

What can I do to help him find a reason to get up off the couch? He's an occasionally avid reader who seems to respect my opinions and listens to what I have to say, but I'm from a different generation and really don't know *what* to say. I'd truly appreciate any ideas or advice, especially from others who've been there and done that.
posted by:
Hoopes
  • Re: Advice for a Slacker

    Tue, January 3, 2006 - 8:12 PM
    If he likes to read maybe he will like writing. Try to get him interested in journalisim courses if he afford them or maybe writing articiles for a newspaper/journal in the area (if he is any good at it). Granted alot of writers have been known for their substance abuse but he could at least pull himself out of the gutter...

    However my main reaction is to just let him rot on his own. Most drug addicts wont change unless THEY themselves want to. I have a sister who is totally fucked up on speed and right now is in rehab by court order and all she thinks about is getting high again. She has no regard for life or her own personal happyness. My parents spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on her monthly with psycologists, psyciatrists, programs etc...She pretends to go and milks more "spending money out of them" The only thing keeping her sober (for the time being) is the threat of jail time. We live in a nice house in a nice niehboorhood, gone to the best private schools, she has travled to Europe almost every summer, and has never gone hungry (a very privelaged life I know) but she throws it in everyons face and hates my parents for trying to provide for her....

    If he has no personal interest in self betterment don't get sucked down with him. I'm watching my parents die over a stupid daughter who in my opinion is best off as far away from the family as possible, It's not worth the effort on your part to try and change his life. Offer him what you can but don't jepordize your life or your families wellbeing (if you have one) in doing so.
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Wed, January 4, 2006 - 7:22 AM
      He told me yesterday that he does like to write, and I've encouraged him to do more of it. He doesn't have a working computer so can't communicate with email, connect with Tribe, start a blog, or read some of the helpful stuff on the Web. The path of least resistance is to light up another bowl.

      To give you a glimpse of the future, this guy's mother was very much like your sister. Not quite as privileged or upper middle-class (her parents' divorce messed that up for her), but smart and college-educated with professional parents who have spent vast resources on her with few results. Part of his problem is that during her messing up she hooked up with this guy's father, an ex-junkie, ex-con who further messed her up with years of poverty and physical abuse. They split up long ago, but their four kids came away with very warped perspectives on the world and themselves.

      I'm not at risk of getting sucked down with this slacker. He lives a couple of thousand miles away and I only communicate with him by phone and mail. He hasn't asked for money and I won't give him any. However, given his mother's crummy situation and his own lowbrow upbringing, it's hard to lay all the blame on him. What I can offer is advice and encouragement before he becomes a crackhead or a meth addict. I just don't know what to say besides letting him know that I'm thinking about him and want to see him get out of his green haze.

      I'm sorry for you and your parents, having seen something similar happen myself (it began unfolding with his mother over 25 years ago, long before this guy was even born). It's good she doesn't have kids yet. The next phase is even more painful to deal with than the first.
  • Re: Advice for a Slacker

    Tue, January 3, 2006 - 8:48 PM
    Tell him how fucked up he is for taking advantage of his parents the way he is. Ask him if he really thinks his folks wouldn't rather have that money for their own needs/desires. Ask him who the fuck he is to decide that his low-income parents have no right to what little money they do have.

    The bottom line is- he has determined that he is content with living off his folks, even people might look at him and ask "how can you live like this? How can you take your folks' money like that?" He's aware that they're low-income. He knows they can't afford it. He doesn't give a shit enough to do anything about it, and NOTHING is going to make him feel differently unless someone he truly admires tells him he fucking up and needs to do things differently. Even then, it's a slim chance, since he's already behaving in a VERY selfish manner- "What's most important is that I live a life of meaningless fun, even if my folks can't go out to dinner once a week because they're paying for my Top-Ramen when I could be working".

    The sad fact is that the vast majority of people in a similar situation are not going to change their habits until they have no other choice, and even then, some might not change. If his folks would cut him off, he'd have to make SOME change.

    If he weren't consuming what meager funds his "low-income parents" have, I'd say "It's his life. He's going to fuck it up if he really wants to, no matter what anyone else says to him. Cut your losses before he's turning to you for money, too", but the parents' money is the lynchpin of my feelings on this subject.

    BUT, if, as you suggest you are, I were someone he'd listen to, I wouldn't bother with the whole "you have a responsibility/cut out the pot/get a life" angle. Instead I'd do my damndest to give his folks a break and MAYBE get through to him through them. Either talk to them and tell them they should cut him off (sure, give him a month to get his act together, but give him a deadline and STICK TO IT), or I'd talk to him once about the need to actually be productive enough to feed himself and maybe be able to enjoy other things in life as a result of having a paycheck. ONCE. He's not deaf. If that didn't make an immediate impact which showed REAL results, I'd stand there between him and his Playstation and say-

    "Sorry pal, I could like you if you weren't such an asshole to your folks. They are broke, and I'm SURE they would MUCH rather have a few bucks to buy a nice dinner once in a while, but because you're their flesh and blood, they feel an obligation to not let you go hugry, which they are doing since you WON'T GET OFF THE COUCH AND FEED YOURSELF! YOU ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEIR SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY TO THEIR DETRIMENT, all because you HAVE NONE OF YOUR OWN. I'm not mumbling. I'm not being unclear. I'm also not gonna watch you be a shithead to the people who gave you life. As long as you're treating your folks like this, I'm gone. Grow the fuck up, get a fucking job, and actually try giving your folks money for a change."

    Then I'd tell him to call me when things are changed. If he values your opinion, this might get through. If you're kidding yourself and he doesn't REALLY value you, he'll continue taking the easy way out, since it's not costing him anything by having you walk. Either way, it's not your job to do more than express your feelings (or mine) once, maybe twice. After that, you're wasting your breath.

    Good luck. I applaud you for making the effort, but I've seen one too many others with similar outlook, and they just don't give a shit as long as they don't have to. The moment he HAS to get a life, he'll either get a life, or be SO selfish that he'd rather steal to feed himself. If that's the case, you're wasting your time, anyway.

    Sorry I'm not more positive, but I've HAD a male relative who was living off his mom at 24, and who didn't give a shit, and a mom who was too damned attached to "her baby boy" to actually insist that he do something like get a fucking job or at least help out around the house that his mom was damned close to losing because she couldn't afford the house AND a 24 year old bum whose friends were always in the fridge. SHE wasn't going to say anything to him, because she (still) thinks actually telling him to help around the house would be "emotional abuse" (see what the 90s has produced???).

    Tell this one to stop fucking his parents and get a fucking job. Hell, working two days a week will give him as much money as they're giving him. It's not like he'll have to give up his 5 days/week of video games and being stoned. He doesn't deserve a dime from his folks, since he's not willing to help himself.

    Peace

    T
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Wed, January 4, 2006 - 7:49 AM
      Thanks for the advice. You've pretty much nailed it. This guy's parents really don't have the resources to pay for his ramen and cans of tuna, but they are also both laden with guilt for giving him such a crappy childhood. On top of that, each of *them* spent their lives getting bailed out of stupid situations and being supported by their *own* parents well into their adult lives (we're talking 40s and beyond). This situation is now in its second generation. Talk about a "cycle of poverty," this is it.

      The main issue here, and the reason I'm posting in this tribe, seems to be marijuana abuse. This guy is smart, a seeker an a dreamer with an interest in mysticism (he's a big fan of Gurdjieff). Burroughs initially ate mushrooms in search of a cure for his heroin habit. There are reports that ibogaine has helped junkies and alcoholics break out of destructive addictions. There may be some lessons to be learned here and I'm curious to know if anything has been demonstrated as effective at shaking a habitual pothead out of his torpor. (Ironically, Gurdjieff would probably send this guy out to the stables to shovel manure all day!)

      In the meantime, talk, ideas, and encouragement are all I can offer. My strategy is to catch him mornings before he lights up and plant some seeds of awakening while his short-term memory is still operational. Something tells me that haranguing, nagging, and guilt-trips will cause him to close what may be one of his few open doors.
      • Re: Advice for a Slacker

        Wed, January 4, 2006 - 9:35 AM
        Another problem is his circle of friends...It is really hard to break a habit when your buddies are lighting up, and coming over everday.
  • Re: Advice for a Slacker

    Wed, January 4, 2006 - 11:49 AM
    From my own experiences with marijuana and logical and emotional disassociation, he just needs the pattern broken so that he gets perspective on himself and how his actions affect those he cares about. Habitual pot use makes it really easy to feel "normal" when you have disassociated from what you know you need to deal with to be happy and healthy. Marijuana can be used as a tool to break that pattern because it pushes your perception to a slightly altered state that can easily be remembered. On the other hand it can become a psychological addiction when you build up a fantasy world inside the marijuana experience that distracts you from what is really going on in your life. Chances are most major habitual pot users started out with it for self medication and didn't know better than to regulate not only how much they use but how they use it. It is possible that if you bring his awareness to how and why he is using marijuana that he will listen, unfortunately if he does not listen then it will only make the problem worse by forcing him to medicate more heavily to disassociate from the awareness you brought to him. It is a double edged sword, in my opinion the best thing you could do is to find a way to get him perspective on his life in a way that doesn't point to you trying to force him to deal with his problems. Example works wonders especially if he respects and looks up to you already. There probably isn't a single one of us that couldn't use more perspective on our own lives. Take that journey yourself and let him be a part of it, he might just follow your suggestion through example alone. I only caution one thing about your apparent path in this persons life, if you get too attached to your perceptions about what he is capable of, you may be let down real hard in the end. To take this journey you must let him find his own path and in his own time, give him example as suggestion not as an expectation. Remember that he is extremely suggestable in this stage of his life, all you have to do is be subtle in suggesting the right things in the right ways and he will learn from it. A good book to read in terms of how to use language and trance states is Monsters and Magical Sticks (Theres no such thing as hypnosis?) by Steven Heller. Since he is constantly putting himself into a marijuana trance you could easily slip in unconscious suggestions that would make his habbit have positive repercussions in his life. Saying things like "I bet you don't think about reasons to get a job every time you smoke pot" will force his mind to think about getting a job every time he lights up. The don't in that sentence is crucial, it is what helps you slip past his conscoius defenses because he'll most likelly agree with you, but his unconscious mind just hears "think about reasons to get a job every time you smoke pot".
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Thu, January 5, 2006 - 8:35 AM
      Thanks for the suggestions about suggestibility! Given the way that pot affects short-term memory, however, I suspect it's very different from other forms of trance.

      You are right on about not getting too attached to my hopes for this guy. He's let me and others down many, many times and the main response most people have to that it anger, which just leads them to think destructive, unhelpful thoughts.

      He doesn't have Web access, but has said he likes to write. I've always found writing to be the best therapy, so yesterday I sent him a nice, fresh journal with lots of pages, a 12-pack of Uniball pens, and a copy of Julia Cameron's book "The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity." She's a strong advocate of a daily writing routine as a path to self-realization and the activation of creative juices:

      www.theartistsway.com

      Over the past couple of years, I've sent him what I'd hoped would be stimulating stuff, including audio CDs of Terence McKenna, classic works of visionary poetry ("Leaves of Grass" by Whitman), and Beat literature ("On the Road" by Kerouac, "Howl" by Ginsberg, and "Naked Lunch" by Burroughs). I also sent him a copy of Daniel Pinchbeck's "Breaking Open the Head," all in the hopes that he's grasp some inspiration from others who've turned their counterculture experiences into art and literature. He seemed to have a lot of energy after his first experiences with magical fungi, but that has faded as his pot habit grew.

      The challenge is figuring out how to steer his tendency for disassociation into new directions of positive, creative energy. I don't think he'll get up and get a job until he figures out a reason why he needs to do that.
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Thu, January 5, 2006 - 8:36 AM
      Thanks for the suggestions about suggestibility! Given the way that pot affects short-term memory, however, I suspect it's very different from other forms of trance.

      You are right on about not getting too attached to my hopes for this guy. He's let me and others down many, many times and the main response most people have to that it anger, which just leads them to think destructive, unhelpful thoughts.

      He doesn't have Web access, but has said he likes to write. I've always found writing to be the best therapy, so yesterday I sent him a nice, fresh journal with lots of pages, a 12-pack of Uniball pens, and a copy of Julia Cameron's book "The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity." She's a strong advocate of a daily writing routine as a path to self-realization and the activation of creative juices:

      www.theartistsway.com

      Over the past couple of years, I've sent him what I'd hoped would be stimulating stuff, including audio CDs of Terence McKenna, classic works of visionary poetry ("Leaves of Grass" by Whitman), and Beat literature ("On the Road" by Kerouac, "Howl" by Ginsberg, and "Naked Lunch" by Burroughs). I also sent him a copy of Daniel Pinchbeck's "Breaking Open the Head," all in the hopes that he's grasp some inspiration from others who've turned their counterculture experiences into art and literature. He seemed to have a lot of energy after his first experiences with magical fungi, but that has faded as his pot habit has grown and his bad company increased.

      The challenge is figuring out how to steer his tendency for disassociation into new directions of positive, creative energy. I don't think he'll get up and get a job until he figures out a reason why he needs to do that.
      • Re: Advice for a Slacker

        Thu, January 5, 2006 - 9:59 AM
        You'd be surprised about the trance states of marijuana. The best part is after you've put the suggestion in a few times he won't be able to consciously remember where it came from, but it will be in there none the less. In fact send him the book I mentioned, if he reads it, it will change his patterns for sure, that is what it was written to do. If he has used all the resources you sent him he at least has some good furnishings in in his mind. I for one thank you for your support of this young man, I only wish I had someone feeding me that info when I was an avid pot head.
  • Re: Advice for a Slacker

    Thu, January 5, 2006 - 10:00 AM
    Sounds to me more like a case of self medication to deal with the environment. Maybe the setting is more to blame than the drug?
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Thu, January 5, 2006 - 10:09 AM
      OK, this looks like a bunch of uppermiddle-class people talking about something they know little to nothing of: poverty. If you want to truly help him then stop wasting your time talking about it and help him get a job with fair wages. This system does a really good job of keeping the poor in their place to serve the wealthy. Some people, like me, would rather starve to death then go work for 5 dollars an hour. Maybe he's not as stupid as you seem to think? People like that tend to be a wealth of resources that have never been tapped and eventually they just give up on society as a whole.
      • Re: Advice for a Slacker

        Thu, January 5, 2006 - 4:12 PM
        > If you want to truly help him then stop
        > wasting your time talking about it and help him
        > get a job with fair wages.

        And just how do you suggest that one go about doing that for a 20-year-old high-school dropout with a GED, no job experience, lousy socialization, hard-to-break substance abuse habits, no car, and no skills? There are plenty of factories where this guy lives, but I don't see him finding a job on the line. The only jobs for people like him that pay better than minimum wage tend to be dangerous, boring, demeaning, or a hazardous combination of all of the above. I managed to avoid even considering that kind of crap, so who am I to recommend it? (If you can't read between the lines here, I *am* trying to help him with just what you suggest.) I'm guessing that bussing or serving in a restaurant may be one of the more tolerable ways to get started, but I'm open to other suggestions.

        > Some people, like me, would rather starve to death
        > then go work for 5 dollars an hour.

        You don't seem to know much about poverty, either. How about some concrete suggestions? I don't have any cool, high-paying jobs to give out. How about you?

        Ya really wonder how all of those huddled masses yearning to breathe free ever survived their first winter in America, right? Most of them couldn't/can't even speak English!

        Do you think of migrant farmworkers every time you eat vegetables?
        • Re: Advice for a Slacker

          Thu, January 5, 2006 - 5:14 PM

          Hoopes,

          I've often wondered why it is that some people tend to grow, develop, and mature throughout their entire lives, while others reach a certain point and then stop... forever. They get stuck from a developmental perspective. It's remarkable when you think about it.

          And being stuck just seems to make life harder, not to mention less fun. "The person with the widest range of possible responses will, over time, be the most effective," not to mention experience life more fully.

          So how do you help someone who is stuck like that get unstuck? And what are the determining factors for being a person who's open to lifelong growth and development?

          These things all seem to help:

          - Being presented with incrementally increasing challenges that can, for the most part, be met successfully; the successes building confidence. This one's very effective with kids.

          - A dramatic life change that results in a letting-go of old thought processes and ways (sort of the Mutate or Die scenario).

          - International travel, which tends to change the way people view the world and their relationship to it.

          - Lifelong exposure to and the absorption of new ideas and skills, stimulating brain development and thought patterns that support an open-minded reaching out to the world.

          Practically speaking.....

          Given the limited info I have about your situation, I'd recommend 4-6 months abroad, working as a volunteer with a nonprofit or the like - maybe building houses in Mexico? Or, I'd gift him a series of classes in an area of great interest to him. Anyway, change his environment, throw new stuff at him, and see if he starts to see the world in a different light.

          That and tell him to stop smoking pot. It's so dull :-) J/k.

          Sparkle








          • Re: Advice for a Slacker

            Thu, January 5, 2006 - 8:07 PM
            Thanks, Sparkle! Getting stuck seems to be the issue here, and helping someone to get unstuck is what I'm trying to do. All of your suggestions are excellent. In fact, all of the ones that you mention are *precisely* what worked for me. (Including spending three different periods of 3-5 months in Central and South America between the ages of 19 and 21, during which time I lived and worked with rural, Latin American families, often without electricity or indoor plumbing.) However, I don't have the financial resources to send him abroad, or gift him classes, and I don't think he has the interest or inclination to find them for himself (which is what I did). One first step might be to persuade him to at least obtain a passport. The sad thing is, despite his poverty at 18 he inherited a nice chunk of money (over $10K) with which he could have done a lot of these things. (It was originally intended for college.) He has now burned through almost all of it and it's really hard to feel sorry for him about that.
        • Re: Advice for a Slacker

          Fri, January 6, 2006 - 10:17 AM
          If the only real "hard-to-break substance abuse habit" he has is pot, then he doesn't really have a "problem" per se. As far as me not knowing of poverty, how many months of your life have you lived in a tent or less? I guarantee it's less than me. The reason I refuse to settle in for the amerikan mcjob is because I have skills and I know it. As far as migrant workers? Hell, I grew up in Texas. They lower my wages all the time. I've lost out on jobs to them BECAUSE they work for nothing. Look, if you really want to help him, and you have any connections, make some phone calls and give him reassurance coupled with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Maybe he is an untapped wealth and just doesn't know it yet. Pot really is, when abused, a way of just ignoring how much the world around your truly sucks big fat donkey dick.
          • Re: Advice for a Slacker

            Fri, January 6, 2006 - 1:19 PM
            I wish I did have connections, but I don't. However, I am following your advice and giving him both reassurance and constructive criticism. It sounds as if you've got a lot of valuable experience and I do appreciate your taking the time to respond in a thoughtful manner. I'm sorry for making remarks that were out-of-line. If it weren't a difficult issue, I wouldn't be asking for help.
    • Re: Advice for a Slacker

      Thu, January 5, 2006 - 5:03 PM
      blah, I was thinking the same way. More often than not, excessive herbalism (or excessive anything) is a SYMPTOM of some greater problem, a way of coping. Generally giving someone a REASON to have and use other states of consciousness is enough. That includes the greater sense of purpose in life (a "life goal")... but also more specific goals. For instance, I've known more than one pothead who got interested in martial arts, and would then make sure that they were sober for classes.

      Here's a suggestion... find out what he really wants to learn... without being judgmental about it... and pay his tuition for classes, get him books or videos, or whatever you can. Let him choose what it is.
      • Re: Advice for a Slacker

        Thu, January 5, 2006 - 7:48 PM
        I do think you're both right about environment and greater problems. The excessive ganja habit is a symptom of malaise and a method of denial/avoidance/escapism. Replacing it with another attraction ("Oooh, shiny!") is part of what I'm thinking will work.

        > I've known more than one pothead who got interested
        > in martial arts, and would then make sure that they
        > were sober for classes.

        This guy's father is a Tai Chi instructor and both of his parents used martial arts (Aikido) as their own methods of focus (each of them is also in continual recovery from substance abuse issues). I think he's rejected this path already.

        > ... find out what he really wants to learn... without
        > being judgmental about it... and pay his tuition for
        > classes, get him books or videos, or whatever you
        > can. Let him choose what it is.

        Excellent advice. That's what I'm working on. However, it's also the reason I started this thread in this tribe. What he really wants to learn is how to be a psychonaut, a mystic, a philosopher. He wants to know how to see God, how to become a holy man, whether through entheogenic journeys or through other methods. In all seriousness, this is what he has told me and other people several times.

        It's a fine aspiration, especially for someone who claims to be comfortable with poverty. However, neither I nor anyone else is prepared to pay his tuition for ayahuasca journeys, ashrams, or training as a New Age shaman. In the meantime, he's smoking through what few resources he has and hanging out with people who don't give a shit about his spiritual needs. The biggest concern is that his self-medication will soon become a monkey on his back that's more dangerous and harder to kick.
        • Re: Advice for a Slacker

          Thu, January 5, 2006 - 8:53 PM
          I would recommend he attend a Vipassana medititation course. He may not agree, because you have to abstain from all drug use durring the course...but if he is truely interested in exploring consciousness, this would be the ideal place to start. Best of all, the courses are free....as far as I know. here is the website:
          www.dhamma.org/
        • Re: Advice for a Slacker

          Thu, January 5, 2006 - 11:33 PM
          I can't believe I forgot to say, get him in an isolation chamber, buy him The Book of Floating. I've seen the floating experience open people up in ways that I never would have dreamed of given their personality types and life situations.
          • Re: Advice for a Slacker

            Sun, January 8, 2006 - 12:01 PM
            >>" I can't believe I forgot to say, get him in an isolation chamber, buy him The Book of Floating."<<

            Well, the one can be had for about $10 used on www.abebooks.com but the other is gonna cost THOUSANDS of dollars (I have NEVER found a used tank for less than $3,500, and that one needed mucho tlc to make it sound.

            Great idea. Not practical. Hell, get ME an isolation tank. I'll pay half the cost!!!!
            • Re: Advice for a Slacker

              Sun, January 8, 2006 - 12:13 PM
              I didn't say buy him an isolation tank, I said get him in one. Buy the book to get him interested, you can buy an hour in a tank for about $45-60, and typically even one or two hours in the tank tends to set off huge changes for most people.

              I built my own after the first time I got in one, I spent about $2000 on it and I'm still using it 4 years later. If you want to pay me $500 plus parts cost I'll build you one.
              • Re: Advice for a Slacker

                Mon, January 9, 2006 - 8:17 AM
                I've been wanting to try a sensory deprivation tank ever since reading about the late John Lilly's experiences back in the 1970s. I don't know whether he invented the tank or not, but he was among the first to use one for psychedelic excursions from which he returned to tell the tales.

                For anyone who's not familiar with Lilly's work with isolation tanks, psychedelics, and dolphins, a good place to start is his homepage:

                www.johnclilly.com

                It was Lilly's work with floating that became the inspiration for Ken Russell's 1980 film "Altered States," in which William Hurt plays a Harvard anthropologist who regresses so far back while floating that he turns into an Australopithecus and escapes *into* the zoo. Crazy!

                Floating is cool, but I'll be happy if I can just get this guy to refrain from smoking long enough to do some sober meditation for now. All he needs for that is a cushion.
                • Re: Advice for a Slacker

                  Thu, January 19, 2006 - 9:34 PM
                  "get this guy to refrain from smoking long enough to do some sober meditation for now. All he needs for that is a cushion. "

                  Ok, as a person who is purposefully below the poverty level on income, smokes ganja as a regulated self-medication (under the approval of my psychiatrist), a mentor and a teacher of meditation, I'm going to say right now, you need to do more than take advice for him, you need to do these things yourself.

                  If you go to the meditations, the retreats, take some classes you've always wanted to take - become proactive in ways which connect with him - if he respects you it will get his attention faster than anything. Sober meditation takes WaY More than just a cushion, it takes being taught the different methods, self-discipline, support, someone else who is experiencing the same thing to talk to about it. Why not have that other person, Ohming by his side, be You?

                  Don't just stand above and judge, then throw pamphlets at him - that will just piss him off and the doors to your voice will close for a very long time. Instead, sit down and say things like "I've discovered this retreat that's happening close by, I'm going to it and I think you would enjoy it too. If I pay your way, would you like to go with me?"

                  Words mean nothing, especially when the person is in a drug haze. Stoners can ramble on and on for days about the cool shite they "want to do", but, without someone to get up and say "I'm up for it, let's do it!" - many times it stays in the verbalized stage and goes no further. Actions are where it's at, if all they hear are the same judgements coming out of your mouth and you're not doing anything fun and proactive with your own life, the words which will follow you out the door are: "hypocritical old fart". I was that kid when I was 18/19. What shook me up? I got pregnant at 19 and became more proactive in my life for the future happiness of my daughter. I don't recommend That route for anyone.

                  You never know, by being part of the proactive equation in his life and experiencing these things with him as a mentor - you might experience some life changes yourself. And That is always a wonderful thing. :)

                  (I must say, it looks like you were quite the traveller in the past and if you are more proactive than you seem in this discussion, then my apologies for misreading you. But you keep saying you'll recommend it to him or try to convince him to do these things on his own. Sometimes, that helpful, needed, little comfort when stepping out of your everyday sameness, comes in the form of a mentor stepping into the unknown by your side.)

                  Just some thoughts from one mentor to another - I have 5 "surrogate children", aged 16 - 28 and I have helped each and everyone of them step off the streets and into a better life by doing things with them, not just telling them about it. Many of them consider me to be more of a true mother to them than their own biological one, because of it. ;')
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Advice for a Slacker

                    Thu, January 19, 2006 - 10:55 PM
                    This is all excellent advice, but I should emphasize that he lives more than a thousand miles away and has shown no interest in moving any closer to where I am. He's got no car, no computer, and no phone. I haven't seen him face-to-face for three years.

                    I'm content with what I do and the behaviors that I model and don't feel compelled to change those. I think I have, in effect, said "I've discovered what life is all about. It's really cool and I'd like to share it with you." I think I've been a good role model, too. I am doing plenty that is fun and proactive with my own life, thank you.

                    There are other family members who also need my help and attention right now, and they will always come before him. I could do exactly what you recommend. However, it would require a shift in priorities that I am unwilling to make for this person at this time. If that's selfish on my part, so be it. I might feel differently if there were some indication that what I do has any value to him. So far, that hasn't been true.

                    How much do I love him? How much do I care about him? How much am I willing to do? If I were to devote time and energy to helping someone who could use what I can provide, would it be him? I wish I had a clear answer to that, but I don't. I've already got a few family members who seem to be bottomless pits of need. I've also witnessed the frustration of those who have tried to help them for decades, but to no avail.

                    He's had many, many opportunities. So far, he has squandered them all. I will do my best to provide a few more, but the distance makes it difficult.

                    Yes, I know there's a lot more to meditation than a cushion. My point was that it's a path that is open to someone with few resources.
        • Re: Advice for a Slacker

          Fri, January 6, 2006 - 10:24 AM
          "This guy's father is a Tai Chi instructor and both of his parents used martial arts (Aikido) as their own methods of focus (each of them is also in continual recovery from substance abuse issues). I think he's rejected this path already."


          Well, you're quite correct when you say that it's hard to feel sorry for him. Lucky bastard; what with this and the 10 grand, he was already 2 major major steps ahead of me.
          • Re: Advice for a Slacker

            Mon, January 9, 2006 - 10:14 AM
            dang did everyone get brainwashed by oprah in here or something? I was a total looser at that age, in the usa its cool to be a looser like that at that age. he is going to get worse before he gets better, thats how it works. i wish i had inharited a house like that then i would realize that a job that pays minimum wage would make me 500 dollars at the very least richer than the guy standing next to me because i didnt have to pay rent. a 20 something guy likes to party and play video games all day stoned out of his mind. when i was going through that phase i didnt start growing up till like 26 or so, by that time i wanted things i saw others my age in posession of, embarasment would kick i and i would try to get a better and better job to make more and more money. I am now an aspiring engineer and in the last 3 years (28-31) i have doubled my income. i still smoke pot and play video games though, i just do it in a nice neighborhood on a projection screen that is 8 feet wide. a couple of my friends from the old days came by last night and they couldnt bewlieve how good i was doing and how knowlegable i was. if the boy is bright chances are he will eventually find his way, my advice would be do nothing more than the ocaisionally planted seed to stimulate him in the right direction. just my .02 centados you stoner haters, this is the psychonauts tribe isnt it? lets act like it, i hate when someone thinks the definition for hypocracy is once you are an adult you act this way.
            • Re: Advice for a Slacker

              Mon, January 9, 2006 - 12:08 PM
              Question is, why are ppl who identify with being Psychonauts concerning themselves with converting a guy who lives a 1,000 miles away from his nearest relative in this thread - And even further from the rest of us - to their semblance of a healthy "reality" by way of sensory dep, college coupons, building houses in Mexico, vispassna retreats and other "fine aspirations"?!

              IMAGINE if he knew the extent of "concern" for his livelihood going on in here...

              I'm with Blah - maybe this guy is a lot more skilled in exploring his options than you/we actually think:

              Could be, it's not him who needs to "get a life" ;)
              • Re: Advice for a Slacker

                Mon, January 9, 2006 - 1:49 PM
                Okay so I'm not over my "dharma honeymoon" with isolation chambers and NLP. Arguably though they present a number of very possitive transformational oportunities, especially for someone in said circumstance. I was lead to an isolation chamber at 20 and it changed my life in the most positive ways imagineable. I only wish I had access to one when I was 12. At any rate the idea that we are all too interested in saving this poor young pothead is a very valid one. At this point I'm just very interested in where this conversation is going.
              • Re: Advice for a Slacker

                Mon, January 9, 2006 - 5:41 PM
                Although I started this thread with the specific goal of seeking advice for helping a specific person, I have tried to keep things in general enough terms so that the recipient of the advice could be one of millions of 20-year-olds who find themselves in similar situations. I do hope that the ideas that have been shared here could prove useful to their own friends, relatives, or neighbors. We all know or have known people like this, right?

                You have to admit, the "Psychonauts" tribe is going to generate a different collection of responses than would a tribe of evangelical Christians! Ironically, members of the Campus Crusade for Christ or the Promise Keepers would have no hesitation in expressing their concern for someone like the person I've described, or in offering helpful advice and possible courses of action. The same would be true for a social worker or a shrink. However, I didn't ask THEM.

                This guy may well be more skilled in exploring his options than we think, but I know him better than anyone here and I don't think that's the case. If I did, I wouldn't have asked.

                Thomas Merton wrote, "Compassion is the keen awareness of the interdependence of all things." That includes anonymous strangers who live a thousand miles away.


              • Re: Advice for a Slacker

                Sat, January 14, 2006 - 11:15 AM
                It's called conversation...and the real question is, why are YOU so threatened by it that you have to take time out of your precious life to condemn ours?

                I don't think anyone wants to "convert" him to anything. Fact is conversation helps not only the one who it is about but also those who are conversing and exchanging ideas.

                Sure, "this guy" probably does have the skills to get out of his situation or to improve himself, but why shouldn't he be helped? And why SHOULDN'T we care? He is another living, feeling person, a human being who is trying to figure out what path he wants to travel....road signs help show the way, whatever way he chooses to take, it is ultimately up to him.

                but that's a cool pic on your profile, dude.