Methylone (bk-MDMA)

topic posted Tue, June 12, 2007 - 1:54 PM by  Anon
Has anyone tried it before??

From what i've read it sounds like quite a interesting analogue. The effects are similar, but not identical to MDMA. It's said to have a more chilled, and less of empathic feel to it. The type of drug to take when chilling with friends, or taking it easy on a day out. Not too intense, not too subtle.

I've found quite a few chemical supplier sites that sell it, plus it has the added bonus of being legal here in the UK. Well for the time being anyway...

posted by:
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Tue, June 12, 2007 - 6:09 PM
    Methylone is MDMCat from what I have known. It is not an amphetamine, but a cathinone.

    It is one of my favourites but has high potential for abuse because it is 'better' than MDMA.

    It is legal in the US and Canada as well because it is used as carpet cleaner or something like that.
    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Tue, June 12, 2007 - 7:36 PM
      Yeah, bk-MDMA is more a brand name for Methylone as it's a benzylic ketone analogue of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine.

      I'm intrigued as to why you think it's 'better' then MDMA. From what i've read, it seems to be more mild and has lesser serotonergic activity, which would explain the why the empathy is not so pronounced.

      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Wed, June 13, 2007 - 6:31 PM
        I don't enjoy the rushy stuff as much - I feel I am able to better articulate and communicate/listen.

        Also, there is less serotonin activity which leaves you less drained afterwards.

        It is really more about personal taste - I do try to stay away from that stuff because I like it too much.
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Mon, June 25, 2007 - 9:18 PM
    I think that methylone definitely compares to MDMA. It doesn't have a harsh come down either. Taking it as a combo with like one of the 2c's is amazing... one of the best body highs I've ever felt, that was with 2c-i. It is perfect for concerts!
    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Tue, July 10, 2007 - 5:20 PM
      Better than MDMA, but still yuk!

      Who the hell wants to feel jet lagged for three days after one night out.

      At least Methylone dosn't make you feel like you just done a round trip on Concorde without breakfast.

      Excuse, don't you people respect your brain chemistry at all.

      If you didn't know already, Phenethylamines fry your brain matter as good as throwing a raw egg in boiling fat for twenty minutes.
      Also the damage caused is irreversable.

      just cos you wanted to have a good time.

      Hey folks, stick with the plants, at least they have a conciousness!

      What is wrong with chewing a bit of Khat!!!

      Bless and be blessed'
      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Tue, July 10, 2007 - 5:28 PM
        > If you didn't know already, Phenethylamines fry your brain matter as good as throwing a raw egg in boiling fat for twenty minutes.

        That's complete nonsense. None of the phenethylamine hallucinogens are believed to be toxic to any bodily organ. MDMA and methylone may be another matter, but as a broad characterization of phenethylamines that's totally false.
        • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

          Thu, July 12, 2007 - 7:07 AM
          Excuse your chemistry bro, please read this extract Lux.
          I have many more.

          4-Bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine (2C-B) and structurally related phenylethylamines are potent 5-HT2A receptor antagonists

          Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) is a phenylethylamine with novel mood-altering properties in humans. MDMA shares the dopamine-releasing properties of amphetamine but has been found to be a more potent releaser of serotonin (5-HT). The present study undertook to determine the relative roles of dopamine and 5-HT release in MDMA-induced locomotor hyperactivity. S-(+)MDMA produced dose-dependent increases of rat locomotion. Investigatory behaviors such as holepokes and rearings were suppressed by (+)MDMA. Pretreatment with the selective 5-HT uptake inhibitors fluoxetine, sertraline and zimelidine inhibited (+)MDMA-induced locomotor hyperactivity but failed to antagonize the reduction of holepokes and rearings. Because 5-HT uptake inhibitors have been found previously to block the MDMA-induced release of 5-HT in vitro, and because fluoxetine was found to have no effect on (+)amphetamine-induced hyperactivity, the present results suggest that (+) MDMA-induced locomotor hyperactivity is dependent on release of endogenous 5-HT. Additionally, prior depletion of central 5-HT with p-chlorophenylalanine partially antagonized the (+)MDMA-induced hyperactivity, although catecholamine synthesis inhibition with alpha-methyl-p-tyrosine did not block the effects of (+)MDMA. Taken together, these studies suggest that (+)MDMA increases locomotor activity via mechanisms that are dependent on the release of central 5-HT and that are qualitatively different from the mechanism of action of (+)amphetamine.

          So there you go.
          Don't know where you studied your chemistry, but Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) is a phenylethylamine.

          Source reference :- Zakzanis KK, Young DA.
          Division of Life Sciences,
          University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada.
          J Pharmacol Exp Ther, 1990; 254(2):456-64

          I have many more such citations that blow you completely out of the water.

          Chemistry, chemistry chemistry.

          Study, study, study.

          Wiki :- MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine), most commonly known today by the street name ecstasy, (often abbreviated to E, X, or XTC) is a semisynthetic entactogen of the phenethylamine family.

          So there you go Lux.

          My comments are educated and backed with intence study and many years at university studying novel compounds.

          And are not toaly false.
          Unless you feel you can chew the chemistry with me!

          Bless and be blessed'
          • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

            Thu, July 12, 2007 - 7:37 AM
            Excuse, and to add.

            I have many citations and studies that prove that phenylethylamines cause irreversible damage to the Seretongenic emitters and receptors in the brain.
            Seeing as both the 2c class and MDMA effect the release of 5-HT, they are very nasty synthetic compounds, like Meth- amphetamines.

            I can also attest to personal experience of extremely heavy depressions caused by the use of these said drugs.

            It has taken many years and many plant allies to get me out of that damn hole, and I still fight with the chemical imbalances of my use of these substances as a young man.

            This is why I made the educated comment in the first place.


            If you still query my comments, look at the molocule structure of the said compounds and compare them.
            There is very little difference.
            Only the carbon and nitrogen atoms are at a different position about the benzoin ring, or are double subsituted about the ring.

            Study study study!

            Read all the chemistry stuff about these comounds written by Alexandra Shulgin and you will get the picture.
            • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Thu, July 12, 2007 - 7:43 AM
              Just to add.


              You shouldn't try to shoot me down without citing references and citations to the fact that they are not toxic.

              Have a good day now:)
              • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                Thu, July 12, 2007 - 9:32 AM
                The citation that you proferred says nothing about neurotoxicity or harm, it says that 2C-B is a 5-HT agonist. If you can find credible evidence that 2C-B is neurotoxic, I'll eat my shoe.

                Here's a reference:

                "Hallucinogens are generally considered to be physiologically safe molecules whose principal effects are on consciousness. That is, hallucinogens are powerful in producing altered states of consciousness (ASC), but they do so at doses that are not toxic to mammalian organ systems. There is no evidence that any of the hallucinogens, even the very powerful semisynthetic LSD, causes damage to any human body organ. Cohen (1967) has stated, ‘‘Death directly caused by the toxicity of LSD is unknown.’’ This statement was reiterated 20 years later by Jaffe (1985), ‘‘In man, deaths attributable to direct effects of LSD are unknown.’’ This observation still remains true today. Hallucinogens do not cause life-threatening changes in cardiovascular, renal, or hepatic function because they have little or no affinity for the biological receptors and targets that mediate vital vegetative functions."

                That is from "Hallucinogens" by David Nichols - one of the most prominent researchers in the field. The work is online here:

                Also note that I did not say that "no phenethylamine is at all harmful", I said that your characterization that all phenethylamines cause irreversible brain damage is completely without merit. Mescaline has been studied for over a century and there is no evidence that it is neurotoxic in usual dose ranges.
                • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                  Thu, July 12, 2007 - 10:53 AM
                  OK bro,

                  Synthetic phenylthyleamines, substituted C + N, para - meta positioned on the benzoin ring.

                  I did not state myself clearly.

                  Not organic as such as would be found in a plant.

                  I took your statement to say that MDMA or Methynlone was not a phenylethylamine.

                  There is evidence that phenylethylamines, synthetic, substituted positioned, do cause damage to 5-HT receptors.

                  I myself know they do.

                  From my experience and undestanding of the process that 2c class types definitaly do have this effect on the 5-HT receptors.
                  A dose took of say 20mg initialy and then subsaquently over a period of days (not tweaking) has no tolerance effect at the 5-HT neurotransmitter, but the receptors start to counter act this bombardment and learn quickly to shut down. Taking many other receptors with them. The process takes many days to recover and damage has been noted, but no dosage given, at crutial bridges between these sites, the bridges seem not to recover from this bombardment and eventually other bridges must be found. A kind of re-routing goes on. It takes many years bro, and lots of experiments and talking with many plants to find the answers.

                  Funny how none of this crazyness came from the plants, only my over indulged experiments of my youth.

                  Understood it is all down to personal choice, but a good sound knowledge of what you might be getting yourself into before hand would definitaly be an advantage so to speek, allowing one to be able to choose your road of destruction first.
                  I am glad that I would not ingest or otherwise take, any more, anything that I did not understand the workings of, in basic.
                  Just knowing it makes you speedy is pointless.

                  So the animal in me jumped, through many years of stress, at myself, and now others that I see through treatments.
                  People completely without a clue as to what has happened to them and how they can help themselves, without immense frear, that uncontrolable ilogical animal instinct that tells you otherwise.
                  I do not know very much abut these peole that come and also contact me. One thing I do know is they do not know what they are doing.
                  They have no clue other than to ask someone else, and I pray they pray that I can give them guidance.
                  My object was not to argue the oint of these substances with you bro, it was, I suppose, an awaiting point I saw that needed addressing.
                  I thank you for your time.
                  It is good to debate these things, it keeps you kean, another attribute I see failing in my surrounding community.

                  All and only to say, give of and recieve of much love of each other, and plant knowledge of that said love in each other.

                  Blessings bro, one and all'

                  Hey Lux, you should come to my tribe, plant knowledge, and join us with your insights.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                    Thu, July 12, 2007 - 12:12 PM
                    What I hear you to be saying now is that 2C-B does not precipitate downregulation in 5-HT receptors and that can cause neural blowout with repeated daily dosing. I'd love to see published evidence for this - assuming that's accurate, it's very interesting. If what you say is correct, then that would certainly be a plausible mechanism by which some synthetic phenethylamines caused harm, though I'd hesitate to call it neurotoxicity in the classic sense.

                    That scenario is also a far cry from what you described before with the egg and the boiling fat, and it does not contradict Nichols's claim that in normal use serotonergic hallucinogens are not neurotoxic. I make no claims that daily dosing with any hallucinogen is a good idea.

                    I'd add that mescaline is a phenethylamine, and it comes from plants.

                    Thanks for your invite - I'll check out your tribe.
            • Unsu...

              Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:21 PM
              Seeing as both the 2c class and MDMA effect the release of 5-HT, they are very nasty synthetic compounds, like Meth- amphetamines.

              I can also attest to personal experience of extremely heavy depressions caused by the use of these said drugs.

              It has taken many years and many plant allies to get me out of that damn hole, and I still fight with the chemical imbalances of my use of these substances as a young man.


              I know this post is some months old, but I feel you overgeneralize and are spreading some alarmist mis-information, based on your own experiences and no doubt due to your own body chemistry.

              I have developed a long and intimate relationship with 2cb and have NEVER experienced any of the things you have, in regards to depression or "neural blow out", even after doses that are considered high by some, and even when done a few days in a row. In fact, my experiences have been nothing but positive, and they have facilitated my cognitive thinking as well as my ability to do energy work on a level I was not able to before. And there have been instances where I have felt absolutely euphoric for days afterward, but I think that is more to the personal growth and internal work I was doing while altered, than any chemical residue in my body.

              Sourcing is also a factor in all this... lots of alleged MDMA out there is mixed with junk and feels more speed-like than pure MDMA, and if you had 2c that felt like speed rather than what Shulgin describes, then I really wonder what you were taking and how it was made.

              It sounds to me like you probably have a brain chemistry that does not mix well with some synthetic compounds, and that is not unusual in the least with MDMA. People who are prone to depression are more likely to experience physical and emotional "hangovers" from using phenylethylamines. But I also notice those folks also tend to overdo the use of those substances, in effect, self-medicating. If I had a dollar for every person I met who was using substances in place of proper mental health care, well, I could probably pay a month of rent in San Francisco.

              You also seem to miss the point that MDMA and the 2C class provide *very different* experiences. MDMA is not a psychedelic and 2c class substances are. It's like comparing watermelons and apples... and while you may have had negative experiences while using them, that does not mean they are "bad" or people should avoid them. I would be interested to know what the set and setting was for you when you did them and how much that was a factor in your negative experience, as opposed to the drug itself.

              I don't deny that repeated/heavy use of MDMA can affect the brain's ability to make it's own dopamine/serotonin over time... that is one reason why I don't recommend people take melatonin for long periods of time, as it messes with the brain chemistry in a way that is not intended, but I also know the effects of things like MDMA and 2CB, which Ann Shulgin used extensively in counselling, can be positive when used with consciousness and educated intent.
      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Sun, July 15, 2007 - 7:42 PM
        While I appreciate you're concern, Motumba. I ask you not to make grossly over exaggerated claims, and fail to back them up with any form of reference. Many substances whether found in plants or synthetic, have a certain degree of risk.

        I throughly enjoyed my experience with Methylone. That said, its probably not something i will take in the future. I'd also like to add i had little if any negative side effects, and think its safe to say my brain matter didn't boil like a egg. I also carried out all the necessary precautions by taking vitman E and selenium before and after dosing. Followed by 5 htp after the effects had worn off.

        Incase you didn't know Khats main active ingredient is of the Phenethylamine family. Which according to research is neurotoxic in high doses. Saying that you really have to be careful what you read these days. I'm sure your aware of the ongoing war on drugs. Misinformation is everywhere on the Internet and many scientific studies are corrupt. Here is a prime example.

        Scientists at Johns Hopkins University who last year published a frightening and controversial report suggesting that a single evening's use of the illicit drug ecstasy could cause permanent brain damage and Parkinson's disease are retracting their research in its entirety, saying the drug they used in their experiments was not ecstasy after all.

        Rick Doblin, president of Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a Sarasota, Fla.-based group that funds studies on therapeutic uses of mind-altering drugs and is seeking permission to conduct human tests of MDMA, said the evidence of serotonin system damage is weak.

        "The largest and best-controlled study of the effect of MDMA on serotonin showed no long-term effects in former users and minimal to no effects in current users," he said.

        And here is the reference to Khats neurotoxic effects.

        Cathinone decreases firing of substantia nigra neurons, similar to amphetamine. Animal discrimination of cathinone is dependent on dopamine release, but is independent of 5-HT3 modulation or CA2+ inlux through L-type channels (Schechter 1992. High doses of cathinone result in depletion of dopamine and also have neurotoxic effecs on dopamine neurons (Wagener et al 1982).
        • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

          Mon, July 16, 2007 - 3:35 PM
          Craig, non of what said was grossly exaggerated.

          MDMA causes depression.

          That is no exaggeration.

          • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

            Mon, July 16, 2007 - 4:26 PM
            Ecstasy damage on brain sertonic neurones in humans have been recently studied (McCann, 1994): 30 MDMA users and 28 controls have been compared for the measurement of biological and behavioural indexes of central 5HT function. Measure obtained after two weeks of drug abstinence included monoamine metabolites in cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) and personality tests in which serotonin is implicated (ie. impulsiveness and agressivity) gave the following results: lower levels of 5 hydroxy indolacetique acid in MDMA users than in controls (p=0.01). Lower scores on personality measures of impulsiveness (p = 0.04) and indirect hostility (p=0.09) in users. These results mean that the serotonin brain system has a role in modulating aggressive personality traits and acting aggressively.
            This is way back in 1994.
            There is a lot more up to date stuff in medical journals.

            Serotonin is a neurotransmitter, a chemical that nerve cells (neurons) use to communicate with other. Neurons that use serotonin to communicate are called serotonergic neurons. People who are depressed don't seem to make enough serotonin, and drugs like Prozac and Paxil increase the amount of it in the brain. The amino acids tryptophan and 5-hydroxytryptophan are converted into serotonin and when taken orally tend to be somewhat antidepressant and make people sleepy. Hallucinogenic drugs work by tricking some neurons into thinking they're seeing serotonin, and blocking serotonin messages to other neurons. Serotonergic neurons send messages all over the brain, including to the areas involving thinking and memory (the amygdala, cortex, and hippocampus).

            Another neurotransmitter that ecstasy affects is dopamine. Dopamine is involved in many brain functions, including movement, psychosis, and pleasure. Parkinson's disease is caused by too little dopamine in a specific brain area, the striatum, and psychosis by too much dopamine. Cocaine is addictive and pleasurable because it increases dopamine levels in the brain's "pleasure center". Amphetamine, ecstasy's close cousin, also works partly by increasing brain levels of dopamine. Too much ecstasy, cocaine, or amphetamine, and abusers can become psychotic and paranoid.

            Finally, like amphetamine, ecstasy is sympathomimetic. That means that it mimics your body's fight or flight response. Taking too much ecstasy can cause sweating, dry mouth, dizziness, restlessness, pounding heart, and high blood pressure. Eighty-seven people have died so far from strokes and heart problems caused by these side effects, and they didn't even overdose.

            Ecstasy makes people high by causing a large release of both serotonin and dopamine from neurons out into the brain. The dopamine release causes ecstasy's amphetamine-like qualities - pleasurable and stimulating in moderate doses, and just plain speedy in large doses. The serotonin release and action on serotonin receptors cause the empathogenic and "trippy" effects of ecstasy. For you scientist types, ecstasy is mildly active at the serotonin 5-HT2 receptor, the receptor where LSD, peyote and psilocybin mushrooms also work. That's probably why some people get closed-eye visuals.

            Unfortunately, it appears that the way ecstasy causes neurons to release dopamine and serotonin stresses them and kills the cells. Dead neurons are a huge problem because, for the most part, they don't grow back. Now, here's where I'm going to part paths with many other writers on ecstasy. Lots of articles out there, including some on Erowid and the Lycaeum offer platitudes like "toxicity has only been seen in animals" or "Prozac helps prevent the toxicity" or even "the animal studies are invalid because of the dosing regimens." Folks, my past training is a Masters degree in Neuroscience from Johns Hopkins and I am currently a Ph.D. candidate in bioinformatics. I am as qualified to evaluate the literature as any other writer on this topic and I disagree. Ecstasy is neurotoxic. It's a subtle, insidious poison, and the more you use it, the more damage you do.

            You see, while I was in school, I reproduced some of the rodent studies in Dr. Molliver's lab that are so frequently shot down. Most of the people writing about ecstasy out there on the web have simply read articles but I have hands-on experience in a real lab. I've dosed rats and looked at their brains after ecstasy treatment. After a single high dose, the serotonergic neurons in rats can be as much as 90% GONE. Blown away. Vanished. Poof. If you could see the slides I made under a microscope you wouldn't even think of doing ecstasy. And no, for those familiar with the studies, it isn't just that the serotonin is gone - it's the axons themselves. That's been clearly demonstrated in follow-up publications (Axt et al. 1991, 1992).

            Dr. Molliver's lab also did the first, often cited primate study of ecstasy toxicity. I've seen those slides too. Much like in the rats, the serotonergic neurons are gone at the higher doses and clearly damaged at the lower ones. The studies are often discounted because Dr. Molliver chose to use repeated, fairly high doses. You want to know why he did it that way? Most researchers really dislike working with primates. They're expensive, require a lot of space, and working on such close cousins disturbs many more scientists than you might expect. So, when primate protocols are designed, the object is to show a really clear effect in as few experiments as possible. These studies were designed based on a dosing regimen that was very reliable in rodents. Sure enough, it worked. Also, many critics overlook the fact that the the lowest dose in the study, 2.5 mg/kg, is actually not too far from a high rave dose. In a 50 kg (110 lb.) person, the monkey dose would be 125 mg. Ecstasy tablets are usually 80-150 mg, so for a small person who goes to a few raves over spring break and takes one tablet each time, the monkey study is right in the ballpark.

            Even more disturbing, the effects are long-term and could be permanent. Serotonergic neurons grow back but they seem to do so abnormally, and some serotonin based responses do not recover (for example, serotonin mediated prolactin release). Monkeys treated with ecstasy and allowed to recover for seven years have abnormal patterns of serotonergic innervation from incomplete regrowth. (Hatzidimitriou et al., 1999).

            Below is Figure 1 from the 1999 Hatzdimitrou et al. paper. It's a microscopic picture of the brain damage caused by ecstasy in monkeys. The white lines are serotonergic neurons running through the cortex, the part of the brain responsible for higher thinking. Pictures A, D, and G are healthy monkey brain. There are lots of white-colored serotonergic neurons running through the brain tissue. Pictures B, E, and H are of the brain of a monkey two weeks after twice-daily doses of ecstasy. The serotonergic neurons are almost gone! Pictures C, F, and I were taken from an animal treated with ecstasy 7 years previously, and the serotonergic neurons have still not recovered.

            Fig 1 see my blog.

            So the question is, given the clear damage caused by ecstasy to animals, does it generalize to humans? Recent research is showing that the answer is unequivocally yes. Many clinical studies have shown clear decreases in serotonin metabolites (breakdown products) in ecstasy users that sometimes return to normal and sometimes don't. Newer positron emission tomography (PET) scan studies show decreases in both glucose use and in serotonergic markers in the brains of ecstasy users. PET scanning is a visualization technique that allows researchers to "see" into the living human brain, so the PET results suggest neurotoxic lesions in humans that are similar to those in animals. Using ecstasy and amphetamine together is particularly dangerous as researchers have shown depletion of dopamanergic markers in the area of the brain that is dopamine deficient in Parkinson's disease and movement disorders. These boichemical studies, in combination with the extensive animal data, give convincing evidence of structural damage to serotonergic systems in the brains of ecstasy users.

            Now that there is a population of ecstasy users and some are volunteering for studies, scientists are showing dose dependent cognitive deficits and memory problems in ecstasy users, even a year after the last use when biochemical markers have returned to normal. Dose dependent means that the more ecstasy the person reported using, the larger the memory and thinking problems. In agreement with the animal studies, repeated use seems to cause more damage. This is very different from marijuana, the other drug criticized for causing memory loss. Pot smokers who don't use a lot of other drugs recover from their memory deficits, while it looks like ecstasy users don't. As with the monkeys, damaged serotonergic neurons probably don't grow back correctly, causing memory and cognitive impairments. Depression is also often seen in heavy, repeat ecstasy users and is thought to be a direct effect of serotonin depletion.

            So, ecstasy causes damage to serotonergic neurons. Repeated use causes more damage. Damage to serotonergic neurons causes memory loss, cognitive deficits, and depression in humans.

            I could go on and on, but I can't be bothered.

            Deaf ears don't hear anything any way.

            Not even the sound advice of an old man that has first hand experience.


            And just for you Craig, so you can do some study yourself.

            References, in chronologic order

            Reneman L, Booij J, Lavalaye J, de Bruin K, Reitsma JB, Gunning B, den Heeten GJ, van Den Brink W. Use of amphetamine by recreational users of ecstasy (MDMA) is associated with reduced striatal dopamine transporter densities: a [(123)I]beta-CIT SPECT study -- preliminary report. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2002 Jan;159(3):335-340.

            Hatzidimitriou G, Tsai EH, McCann UD, Ricaurte GA. Altered prolactin response to M-chlorophenylpiperazine in monkeys previously treated with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or fenfluramine. Synapse 2002 Apr;44(1):51-57.

            Reneman L, Lavalaye J, Schmand B, de Wolff FA, van den Brink W, den Heeten GJ, Booij J. Cortical serotonin transporter density and verbal memory in individuals who stopped using 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or "ecstasy"): preliminary findings. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001 Oct;58(10):907-8.

            Croft RJ, Klugman A, Baldeweg T, Gruzelier JH. Electrophysiological evidence of serotonergic impairment in long-term MDMA ("ecstasy") users. Am J Psychiatry 2001 Oct;158(10):1687-92.

            Verkes RJ, Gijsman HJ, Pieters MS, Schoemaker RC, de Visser S, Kuijpers M, Pennings EJ, de Bruin D, Van de Wijngaart G, Van Gerven JM, Cohen AF. Cognitive performance and serotonergic function in users of ecstasy. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2001 Jan 1;153(2):196-202.

            Kalant H. The pharmacology and toxicology of "ecstasy" (MDMA) and related drugs. CMAJ. 2001 Oct 2;165(7):917-28.

            Kraner JC, McCoy DJ, Evans MA, et al. Fatalities caused by the MDMA-related drug paramethoxyamphetamine (PMA). J Anal Toxicol 2001; 24: 645-648.

            Morgan MJ. Ecstasy (MDMA): a review of its possible persistent psychological effects. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2000 Oct;152(3):230-48
            • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Tue, July 17, 2007 - 12:18 AM
              You didn't say MDMA though, did you. You stated the whole Phenethylamine family will fry your brain like and egg. Totally different . As i said before many drugs involve risk, whether they come from plants or not. Even chemicals that aren't toxic like THC can cause severe depression, anxiety, memory loss, paranoia, panic attacks etc in some people. Just because it comes from a plant doesn't necessarily make it safer then a synthetic substance. In the grand scheme of things, MDMA is a lot safer then many legal/illegal drugs (see link below). Taking it a few times a year isn't going to cause any long term side effects. And seeing Methylone has a lot less affinity for sertonic neurones then MDMA, its likely to be a lot less toxic.

              • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                Tue, July 17, 2007 - 2:14 AM
                That is an f- in news paper bro, plus also we all know that alcohol/tobacco is dangerous.

                I meet daily, through treatments, people fighting to get a handle on damage caused by a misspent youth.

                MDMA is known to cause the damage mentioned in doses as little as 175mg, the only reason that the doses in primates are slightly higher is that a wide spectrum of effects is required for analysis of the said data.

                Iboga was only sanctioned by the FDA, for tests in humans, at doses of no more than 25mg/kg body weight, because doses higher than that had been seen to cause damage to the cerebellum/olive parts of the brain.

                If you read my comments closely you will note that I stated N & C para/meta positioned synthetic phenylethylamines.

                As to your comments about THC, any memory loss by the said use is reversible, on it's own, without intervention, and I have yet to find a scientific study to say that THC causes neuron damage in the brain.

                Ok so you know the risks.
                What is the point of taking 5-htp after ingestion of MDMA.
                It is not the Serotonic emitters or receptors that get hit, the serotonin depletion in your brain is due to the axons between the emitters/receptors being burnt out.

                OK I understand you are young, you have much to learn.

                I stated facts of a substance that causes damage.

                I note on one of your posts you mention taking stuff for anxiety/sleep.

                As I have said, you have much to learn.

                Bless and be blessed'
                • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                  Tue, July 17, 2007 - 3:53 AM
                  "Rick Doblin, president of Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a Sarasota, Fla.-based group that funds studies on therapeutic uses of mind-altering drugs and is seeking permission to conduct human tests of MDMA, said the evidence of serotonin system damage is weak.

                  "The largest and best-controlled study of the effect of MDMA on serotonin showed no long-term effects in former users and minimal to no effects in current users," he said. "

                  My comments about MDMA specifically where pointed at you bro, seeing as you gave me so called references to the fact that some scientists had retracted their comments of single use.

                  There is quite a weight of evidence that a single dose of MDMA can be extremely damaging.

                  Just as an aside.

                  How many young people do you think end up seeing psychs/doctors for complaints like, depression, mood swings, anxiety, insomnia, listlesness and haven't even a clue how or why they are suffering the said complaints.

                  Could it be that they mixed Caffeine with substances like MDMA, smarty party pills, and didn't even know what it was doing to the internal chemistry of their brains.

                  On chemical analysis of these so called powders/pills it has been seen that a good majority of them have been adulterated with other chemicals.
                  At least if you stick to the plants, they don't lie to you:)

                  I suppose I am lucky in the sense that through my work I am able to get any substance analysed within 3 days, so can personally attest to all this rubbish being added.
                  You live in the UK.
                  Last street analysis of Methylone and MDMA came back with some very nasty stuff added. We only got one pure sample of MDMA and one pure sample of M preparation amphetamine.
                  The adulterants where as follows,
                  Caffeine, nicotinamide, MDP2P, methamphetamine, mCPP, OMPP, DOC, diltiazem( usually an adulterant used in Cocaine), dimethylsulfone, Promethazine, ketamine, caffeine, N-(2,4,6-trimethylphenyl)phthalimide (found in a sample of Methylone, Birmingham UK), 1,4-butanediol (mixed with 2ci in liquid form) DOB (supposedly LSD blotters), levamisole (mixed with MDA as "E") DOC, DOI.

                  All of the above adulterants where found in street smarties, samples of 2Ci, 2cb, 2ce, Methylone, Cocaine, street amphetamine, Heroin.

                  The two clean samples of MDMA and M-amphetamine came from Holland and Florida USA respectively.

                  I work with this stuff daily and also treat people on a regular basis with Iboga.
                  Funny how my 17 case studies, in the past 18 months, all have previous amphetamine, MDMA, Cocaine, Heroin use, along with alcohol and tobacco
                  All clients showed a marked degree of clinical depression, anxiety, obsession, psychosis, mood swings.

                  Unless you get your party smarties from a reputable lab, or make them yourself, it is very unlikely that you get what you think you are getting.

                  Be very careful.

                  If in doubt "Flush it"

                  But like I said " The youth of today, not all I might add, think that they are invinsible, and anyway, it will never happen to them"

                  OK I said my piece, listen or not, it is all about personal choice.

                  I'm off to get some well required sleep now.

                  Have a good day now!


                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                    Tue, July 17, 2007 - 10:12 AM
                    "That is an f- in news paper bro."

                    Really? I would have never guessed. That link was just to summarize the recent RSA Commission on Illegal Drugs findings. These people are the top experts in the country, and have being giving the job come up with a more effective drug law policy.

                    "As to your comments about THC, any memory loss by the said use is reversible, on it's own, without intervention, and I have yet to find a scientific study to say that THC causes neuron damage in the brain."

                    You missed the point entirely. If you had read what i said properly, you would've noticed I stated Drugs which are NON TOXIC or non neurotoxic (THC) can cause SEVERE mental problems in certain people. Whether its causes neuron damage or not is irrelevant. I've seen many people close to me, completely lose the plot from smoking Cannabis. That being the only drug they take, apart from a drink now and then. Not to mention being completely addicted to it. Yes i know Cannabis is not psychically addictive, but its pretty safe to say its easy to become psychologically addicted in a short space of time. I used to one of them. Which was the main reason i gave it up in the end. Sitting around watching the clock waiting for you're dealer to pick up was painful. Anyone who's been a daily smoker in the past will know what I'm talking about.

                    "What is the point of taking 5-htp after ingestion of MDMA."

                    Ermm, when did i say i took MDMA? I think you're confusing MDMA with Methylone. I took 5 htp incase i was still stimulated after the main effects had worn off. You know, to get some sleep. I didn't really notice any stimulation though, to be honest. Was more a relaxed feeling.

                    "I note on one of your posts you mention taking stuff for anxiety/sleep."

                    LOL. Dude you're scraping the barrel now. Yes i did mate. For when i started a new job. Its pretty normal to be nervous for the first few weeks in a new job. Just as its pretty normal to have trouble sleeping are feeling slightly anxious at certain times in life. You know, for personal reasons, relationships etc. You can blame it one the DRUGS if you like though.

                    To sum up dude. I've never had a MISSPENT YOUTH as you so put it. Sure I've experimented, as a lot of other people have. The only time i came close to going astray was from when i used to smoke Cannabis daily. Since I've quit, thats no longer an issue. I'll leave you with a quote from The legend that is Mr Bill Hicks and a graph taken from the RSA Commissions findings.

                    “I’ve had great times on drugs. Never killed anyone, never hurt anyone, never raped anyone, never lost a home, job, wife, or kids, laughed my ass off, and went about my day. Sorry”.


                    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                      Tue, July 17, 2007 - 11:04 AM
                      "On chemical analysis of these so called powders/pills it has been seen that a good majority of them have been adulterated with other chemicals."

                      The is sadly true in some cases. Though this is a problem caused by prohibition, not MDMA itself. This can be easily fixed by legalizing and having control of production. In the mean time there are many XTC pill testing kits on the market that can identify likely adulterants. I doesn't completely fix the problem, but makes it that little bit safer.

            • al
              offline 0

              Re: Nobunoni Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Thu, January 6, 2011 - 9:15 PM
              Well, I do believe there is SOME damage, which will only be exacerbated by the impurities of street Ex, and of course the standard unhealthy diet that is devoid of brain nutrients and filled with other toxic chemicals... if there was SUCH a damaging of seretonergic activity (that did not repair itself even somewhat adequately) I would probably be feeling REALLY SH* - TTTTY right now... if 50% of my seretonin neurons were done.... yea, I think you are fear mongering here, that being said, precautions should ALWAYS be taken...and above alll else, better to over-prepare, meaning... get a very good amount of fruits, vegetables, living, WHOLE foods in your diet, and practice moderation... you will be fine.

              Live and let live, do not focus so much on the physical... it is is pinnacle, but remember that there more to life than the practiced... so much more! Think BIG!
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Wed, July 18, 2007 - 11:28 PM
    Here's a little trip report. The un-named key substance in the reported experience is Methylone:

    In general... I say that while MDMA kind of forces you into fuzzy nice feelings... Methyl just takes away all the problems in the world, and leaves you free to let your contemplation take you to wonderful places.

    • Unsu...

      Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Fri, September 21, 2007 - 12:53 PM
      "only idiots don't contradict themselves" - osho

      good read. thanks guys.
      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Fri, September 21, 2007 - 8:30 PM
        I think thr ones that end in amphetamine such as mdmA are worse for the bran than the ones that end in phenylamine like 2cb. I heard somewhere that san pedro has trace amounts of mda but I don't know if that's true...
    • Unsu...

      Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Sat, September 22, 2007 - 1:04 PM
      My experience with methyl is that a tolerance develops very quickly...and, while others I know did not have the same experience, during the 3rd and 4th experiences, I became *extremely* agitated and irritable and angry and venomous (yes, I stopped after that). I also had the same experience 1st time with 2CE, so it could just be odd brain chem or something. Was working through major anger issues over time, and my vibration is considerably different overall since then, as well, so perhaps that made a difference.
      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Tue, September 25, 2007 - 4:17 PM
        where i live there is a MASSIVE drug culture, the straitest people i know are the ones who smoke weed. from my personal experience and observations amphetamines of any type thats MDMA and all its derivatives and ordinary 'speed' are seriously harmfull to people psychologically. about half the people i know who use amphetamines on a regular basis have had "amphetamine psychosis" and had holidays in mental hospitals usually more than once. my best mate has ended up with epilepsy because of years of amphetamine use, if he takes amphetamine now he has a fit. i also have a friend who had heart failure at the age of 19 due to excessive extacy use. when i was very young my mother also had a psychosis caused by taking large quantities of cocaine and amphetamine and is now a permanently scizophrenic.

        i have grown up around people taking drugs, everyone i know uses drugs habitually, and from my personal experience is that people who take amphetamines go crazy end up having fits or heart attacks and have you seen what it does to your teeth? to me this is conclusive proof that MDMA and other amphetamines are seriously bad for both your mind and body.

        has anyone ever lived with a house full of speedfreaks?

        i dont care what any sientist says abou how or why MDMA is bad for you the fact is if you take it regularly you will either become depressed, psychotic or both. is that not syptoms that your brain has been damaged?

        im sorry for the rant, im not telling people not to use amphetamines just be carefull cos they can seriously fuck you up
        • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

          Tue, October 9, 2007 - 7:45 PM
          Yeah, it seems like a lot of people have a vested interest in pretending like MDMA isn't bad for the brain. I'm not passing any judgment about it's use, but those who choose to should be well informed about the possible consequences. From my personal observations of users, I think Motumbu's probably right, and seems to have the science to back it up. I'd like to see some more info on it, however.
          • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

            Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:30 PM
            im willing to bet that MDMA isnt good at all for serotonin axial terminals.
            but its not gonna fry them like little shriveled up cheetoes unless you use frequently.
            moderation is key.
            • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Wed, October 10, 2007 - 10:36 PM
              "moderation is key."

              Yeah, thats my point exactly. Too much of anything is bad for you, so more so then others, but ultimately if you use responsibly and not get greedy, you can minimize the risks. I'd say Alexander Shulgin is a perfect example of this. He seems to me very healthy both physically and mentally despite his use of MDMA and indeed many other psychoactives. Thats not to say it isn't without danger, but then very little is in this world is.
              • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                Thu, October 11, 2007 - 7:20 AM
                I do agree that moderate (<1 dose/month) use probably won't cause any noticeable long term effects. However, i think that anyone who chooses to take MDMA or any other substance should be well aware of the potential consequences. It seems to me that there is a lot of resistance to admitting that taking MDMA does come with some substantial risks, and I think that is a dangerous path to be on. IMHO, the more open and honest discussion we have regarding this subject the better.

                And I don't know if Shulgin's the best example. I've got a lot of respect for the man and everything he's done, but he's a pretty wacky cat.
              • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:07 PM
                I'm not going to even try to wiegh in on wether it's harmful or not, that little skirmish was a tad over my head. The thing about moderation is that, people who like whatever drug, tend to use it a little more and more until they're in deep water, all the while defending thier use of it. It's quite a bit like pissing in the wind and trying not to get pissed on. Most people have to have escaped the throes of full blown addiction, like me, to realize that. Otherwise, you say something really important to them about it, and to them, you sound like Charlie Browns' parents, all blah blah blah. Not a word you say, no shred of evidence will affect a persons position if said person wants to keep on keepin' on. Having said that, I took x, 2 tabs, once, got higher than a kite, suffered no apparent damage, but that's probably because I fucked myself up so bad decades ago on meth, that there's no brain cells left to die- I'm simply on autopilot until the wheels fall off.
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Wed, September 26, 2007 - 2:43 PM
    Only have time to scan, forgive me if it's been covered but-

    Is Methylone more resistant to ssri's? I'm currently on Citalopram, so I can't roll like I used to. :(
    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Wed, October 10, 2007 - 10:58 PM
      I recently found a study that warned rats who were administered MDMA showed significant damage in axon terminals of serotonin-producing neurons. Of course, they administered a dose that would be the human equivalent of about 700 mg every two hours for eight hours. For some reason they didn't really highlight that fact.
      • Unsu...

        Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Thu, October 11, 2007 - 3:46 PM
        How convenient they failed to mention the fact that the dose administered is way above what any human could or would take. Poor rats. Its unfortunate that people like Motumba seize on these half-truths as a way of enforcing his own opinions and mindset. he cites all the "deaths from MDMA", rather than stating the truth, that these deaths were caused by effects from drugs that were not MDMA, not taking care of oneself, preexisting physical conditions exacerbated by MDMA, combining drugs, or doing stupid things while on the drug (which people do all the time on alcohol and even hallucinogenic plants)

        When I took my reporting for the sciences class in college, we were warned to read all the protocol under which the study was conducted, and if possible, to find out who funded the study. ANY seemingly legitimate study can have it's protocol skewed to produce the desired results to help a certain agenda be seen as "right". Look at all the studies that have been funded by big pharmaceuticals to make certain drugs look safe when they are not. That kind of funding is a huge issue in the academic and research world right now... how can you expect researchers to do truly impartial studies when the check is being written by someone who has a vested interest in a particular result?

        Since I was never a big fan of MDMA, I cannot recall offhand the normal dosage, but depending on phen tolerance, I think it's somewhere between 75-125 mg. Motumba mentions a dose of 175 mg as being problematic (and cites no study to back that up, interestingly enough), but I don't know of a single person who does mega-doses like that.

        For that matter, if MDMA in itself were truly as dangerous as Motumba maintains, I doubt that it would be allowed to be used in clinical trials to treat those suffering from PTSD, as it currently is in the US, Israel and Switzerland.
        • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

          Sat, November 3, 2007 - 9:34 PM
          "For that matter, if MDMA in itself were truly as dangerous as Motumba maintains, I doubt that it would be allowed to be used in clinical trials to treat those suffering from PTSD, as it currently is in the US, Israel and Switzerland."

          Hehe... just my opinion, but i feel that pretty much all synthetics are going to have negative side-effects. There are all sorts of synthetic drugs that get approval and make it all the way to the market, only to eventually give people heart attacks, liver disease, or some other problem that is probably much worse than whatever the drug is supposed to treat. I can't prove any of this of course, but i'm one of those people who only eats organic and all natural. It's a philosophy.

          Motumba: Pretty much agree with this guy. I've done MDMA and other synthetic drugs, and it was a great time! but the more i learn about how synthetics effect our bodies i'm only interested in all natural drugs. and as motumba said, plant drugs have a life force, which i think is pretty important. I'm sure there is some plant in a rain forest somewhere that produces MDMA like effects.. it's just waiting to be discovered...

          Consider this: Through out the entire history of the universe, mankind, life... no organism has encountered synthetic compounds, not untill very recently anyway... so how can our bodies possibly be evolved to handle these compounds? I think synthetics have a place in the world, just not in our bodies.
          • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

            Sun, November 4, 2007 - 4:05 PM
            Arsenic is a natural drug with its own life force. Does that make it safe to ingest?
            • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Sun, November 4, 2007 - 4:43 PM
              of course not, and uranium is a naturally occuring element, and i'm not gonna keep a chunk of it in my pocket either.

              but if given the choice i'll always go with the natural drug/food/product. I feel that the reason for the steadily rising cancer rates are because of all teh synthetics we come in contact with everyday. our bodies can not properly process them and they get depositied inside of us and build up, slowly toxifing our whole system...

              on teh other hand, arsenic is going to be processed properly by our bodies. our body will properly process it and if the amount is great enough we'll die. However, trace amounts of arsenic (i believe) are actually good for us (it's found in trace mineral supplements.) but even trace amounts of synthetics build up over time to create bigger problems, where something like arsenic (if it didn't kill me) would be broken down and i'd make a full recovery.
            • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

              Sun, November 4, 2007 - 5:08 PM
              I don't understand how Arsenic, or any element for that matter, can have a "life force". What do you mean by that? I understand how it can be a drug, but life force?
              • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

                Sun, November 4, 2007 - 5:25 PM
                I meant it quite loosely in the sense that it's a component of many living things like seaweed, nuts, grain etc..

                I guess it would have been better to use such things like Fly Agric, Deadly nightshade and Cowbane as examples of plants/fungi/drugs that can have potentially fatal side effects.
    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Tue, March 3, 2009 - 3:11 PM
      I definitelt find that I don' get the same effect as my friends b/c I'm on an ssri too. They counteract each other. I reccommend if your depression isn' too severe, skip your pill the day before you roll. Or, what I do is take 5-HTP, an MAO inhibiter (it's in the vitamin section of any store) , which actually increases the effects of the MDMa quite a bit. Hope that helps
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Tue, March 3, 2009 - 3:03 PM
    Hello! would you mind sharing the love? I used to have a wonderful supplier in canada but I think the site is down. It's one of my favorites; very chill, everything is beautiful, it's definitely a good aid for intimacy and connection with others. It also goes really well with some of the other psychedlics that can make me a little edgy sometimes.
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Tue, December 1, 2009 - 2:53 AM
    I’ve been a long time user and fan of MDMA, but I don’t like the negative side effects and health problems that are associated with it; so I was in route for a legal healthier alternative. I tried a lot of legal products on the market, but it was all hype. The closest thing on the market is a product called, Trip2Night ([/u]) - Buy Natural Herbal MDMA & Ecstasy Alternatives that can give you similar euphoric effects and lasts around 5 to 6 hours.
    • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

      Fri, December 4, 2009 - 11:16 PM
      as beings that live and breathe and interact with our surroundings EVERYTHING we consume affects some part of our chemistry. many of the substances that we require to survive can have adverse effects on our bodies when incorrectly proportioned... oxygen? yet we have managed to inherit an incredibly well adapted machine for a body that trends toward stasis. so putting the toxicity argument in that context, think about how over/under/balanced consumption of brain chemistry-affecting might work. first of all, something as seemingly benign as chocolate, or as present as caffeine can have a significant impact on mood. cocaine has one of the longest lasting impacts on brain chemistry. it can take up to six months for brain chemistry to return to "normal" after ingesting it just once. anti-depressants that are prescribed such as tricyclics, ssri's and maoi's have a huge body load not present in amphetamines. ask anyone who's taken wellbutrin, effexor, or prozac. i think that amphetamines are actually immensely underutilized as a mild anti-depressant with comprably minor effects on brain chemistry. also interesting some of the most current non-cns stimulants (adrafanil, modafanil) were originally developed as anti-depressants. as for the plants... it would seem to me that since our brains are so much more sensitive to many plant compounds (ie. tryptamines), maybe we are actually causing more irreversilbe change with these substances. which brings me to my point. anytime i put ANY substance in my body, my goal is to CHANGE my current state.
      • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

        Sat, December 5, 2009 - 12:02 AM
        How does habituation to methylone differ from habituation to prescribed antidepressants?
        • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

          Sat, December 5, 2009 - 10:43 AM
          We might be WAY past this in this thread by now but yes I have a friend who likes mthylone a LOT.

          Are you guys sure sure SURE it's legal even with that Analog Act or whatever?
          • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

            Mon, December 14, 2009 - 5:15 AM
            Jesus, I made this thread ages ago...
            Here in the UK it's still completely legal and extremely easy to acquire as we don't have an Analog Act.
            What with the recent mephedrone boom here though, and subsequent negative media attention that has followed, it's likely that all the beta ketone drugs, mephedrone, methylone, butylone, etc, are going to be banned some time next year.

            As far as I'm aware, it's a legal grey area drug in the US, legal to buy/sell so long as you're not using/selling it for human consumption.

  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Mon, April 18, 2011 - 7:54 PM
    I just had a scary experience with this. 250mg orally x 2 1 hour apart. Muscles seized up and i couldnt move without extreme spasms. Scary stuff. Watch out and use caution. It may have been an allergic reaction, or quite possibly OD. I nearly called an ambulance but a friend was with me and we agreed it should wear off... Its truly a difficult choice to make. Oh, i snorted a few rails to suppliment the oral doses. Maybe 60mg per line @ 4 lines.
  • Re: Methylone (bk-MDMA)

    Sat, July 16, 2011 - 2:55 PM

    I used to get really good pure drone and thought no other drug could compare to it. Now that MMC has gotten tougher to get I decided to try MDMC aka M1 aka Methylone. I must say it was a really pleasant experience. It does not have a super strong euphoric come up like drone but it produces a really natural happy feeling. I drank about 150 mg and then blew 50 mg right after. It took about 20 min but then I got a great clean high. Its not really in your face like drone but you are in a great mood for a couple hours and can still function a lot more than if you took drone. Id say the experience is just as good if not better than MMC